Three men whose identities surfaced during New York's "Cannibal Cop" kidnap conspiracy investigation pleaded not guilty Thursday to their own conspiracy charges, federal prosecutors said.

Michael Vanhise, Richard Meltz and Robert Christopher Asch entered not-guilty pleas to conspiracy to kidnap charges and remain in custody, according to Jerika Richardson, spokeswoman for the office of the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York.

Vanhise was arrested in January after authorities uncovered e-mail conversations he had with New York police officer Gilberto Valle. In those online conversations, Vanhise agreed to pay Valle $5,000 to render a woman unconscious, stuff her into a suitcase and bring her to Vanhise's home in New Jersey, where she would be raped, according to authorities.

Valle, whose attorneys argued in court that his online conversations were the product of "fantasy role-play," was convicted in March of conspiracy to kidnap and accessing a law enforcement database illegally. He will be sentenced in June.

According to the complaint against the three men, authorities allege Vanhise engaged in a series of e-mail and instant messages with Asch and Meltz beginning in 2011 during which they discussed and planned in great detail the kidnapping, torture and murder of women.

Police arrested Meltz, 65, and Asch, 60, last week on charges of conspiring to kidnap, torture, rape and kill women and children, according to a news release from the U.S. attorney's office. Meltz is the chief of police for a Department of Veterans Affairs medical center in Bedford, Massachusetts. Asch is a former high school librarian.

According to prosecutors, an undercover FBI agent met with Asch April 15 to conduct surveillance of a kidnap target, who unbeknownst to Asch was an undercover female agent. During this meeting, Asch brought two bags of tools intended to be used in the kidnapping including a taser gun, rope, meat hammer, duct tape, gloves, cleaning supplies, zip ties, and a dental retractor, a wireless modem, and a leg spreader.

Vanhise's attorney, Alice L. Frontier, meanwhile, said "the evidence against Vanhise hasn't changed and he obviously maintains his innocence."

Referring to the government's case against her client, Frontier said "they have little more than his words."

"Obviously we are going to be filing motions seeking to dismiss the indictment; First Amendment grounds will be one of them," Frontier said Thursday.

Meltz's attorney, Peter Bril, told CNN, "No matter what other defendants may have done, Mr. Meltz never took part in anything other than pure fantasy play, this was nothing more than his fantasy life ... He never had any intention in actually engaging in hurting another person."

The four males, aged between 16 and 18, were arrested by the Selangor police task force at the flats of Sri Medan and Bukit Gasing Indah yesterday and have been remanded until April 29.

Selangor police chief Deputy Comm Datuk Tun Hisan Tun Hamzah said the task force picked up two youths, aged 16 and 18, at about 1.30am at the Sri Medan flats and two others aged 17 and 18 in the Bukit Gasing Indah flats at 3.30am.

"We believe the four suspects are involved in the attempted robbery and murder of the 52-year-old victim," he told a press conference at the state police headquarters yesterday.

DCP Tun Hisan clarified that the incident did not occur at the Bukit Gasing jogging track but at a secluded road near it.

"I assure the public that the Bukit Gasing jogging track is safe. But police will increase patrols at the track and its surrounding areas," he said.

He added that a team of policemen had patrolled the area at about 1.30pm on that day but the incident occurred some three hours later.

"Based on our record, this is the first case which happened in the area. It is an isolated incident but police will remain vigilant," he said.

DCP Tun Hisan said Petaling Jaya OCPD Asst Comm Arjunaidi Mohamad had already met the area's residents association to explain the matter and would meet residents at 2.30pm today.

Ong had bravely defended her teenage daughter from a knife-wielding attacker when they were strolling in Bukit Gasing here at about 4.30pm on Saturday.

She pushed her daughter away during the incident and shouted at her to run to safety when they were approached by the robbers armed with knives.

When the 17-year-old girl ran for help, Ong blocked the robbers who then stabbed her several times before escaping without taking her belongings, which were placed in two small bags.

Her daughter, who returned with help, found her mother lying in a pool of blood and holding the bags.

The five most annoying things passengers do on planes have been revealed in TripAdvisor's first Australian survey on air travel. Are you guilty?

The number one pet peeve when it came to plane manners was people who rudely reclined their seats. This scenario has lead to fist-fights in the skies in recent years.

Parents who don't control their children and annoying kids who constantly kick the seat in front of them were the next most annoying etiquette faux pas in the skies.

In fact, more than a third of those surveyed would be willing to pay more for a child-free flight, an idea airlines have cottoned on to, with AirAsia X and Malaysia Airlines creating "quiet zones" on their planes where children are banned.

Prior to the implementation, the city’s Department of Sustainability launched an extensive education campaign for citizens and retailers. Resource Conservation Coordinator Micah Bonkowski was pleased to find that most of the affected stores were prepared for the law.

Seattle passed a similar ordinance a year ago, and most of the big retailers in Issaquah also have locations in the larger city. Because of that, Bonkowski said they were familiar with the protocol and management of the decision.

“Chances are if you have a store that big, you have a store in Seattle,” he said. “The wording of the ordinance is consistent with every other city’s, and because of that, those retailers had no trouble.”

Though there were initial hurdles immediately after the bill passed, the change did not create a very large stir with most.

“It’s been really up and down,” Nic Scheiner, manager at the Meadows QFC, said. “Some are literally outraged, saying, ‘I’ve never voted for it,’ but it’s definitely just a matter of time before they are used to it.”

“Most people didn’t know,” Front Street Market Store Manager Tracye Randall said. “They might mumble under their breath, but most are OK with it.”

Most all of the retailers affected by the bag ban were large chains, such as Safeway and Target. Front Street Market was the sole locally-owned operation that had to stop using plastic bags, according to Bonkowski. They have taken a different approach by still offering plastic bags to customers to buy. Store Manager Lori Surridge understood the reasoning for the ban but believes the city could have approached it differently.

“We still do our plastic bags that everyone begged us not to get rid of,” she said. To align with the ordinance, which stipulated the thickness of regulated bags, they increased the weight of the bags they supplied. Selling five for $1, Surridge said those bags are already recycled.

For her, the timing, consideration and implementation were all problematic.

“I do think it should be done, but the timing was not right,” she said. “With the economy the way it is, it was just one more thing to put on peoples’ plates. The city could have focused on something a little more important.”

She also voiced disappointment with the lack of education she felt the city provided, saying that the citywide push that was promised did not occur until after the ordinance was in effect.

Though “picking your battles” was often heard when discussing the ban, there is one group that has set its sights on this one.

Bonkowski said there was a “vocal minority” that continued to speak out against the city’s action. One of the most prominent of those rejecting the ban is the Save Our Choice group, a regional organization that has previously fought against a like ordinance in Seattle and turned its attention to Issaquah. The crux of its argument, according to the group’s website, is that it does not want what it feels are personal liberties to be decided by a “nanny state.” It collected 2,700 signatures last summer to bring the issue to a referendum, but the city said that a portion of those collected were too late for inclusion on the November ballot.

Save Our Choice launched another recall effort March 1 to collect enough signatures in hopes of recalling the decision in this year’s election. Save Our Choice representatives did not respond to attempts to contact them.

For Bonkowski, the effort is all about changing consumer perception, and he believes that it is going well.

“The biggest objective is just to get people to remember their reusable bags,” he said. “The larger goal is to help the long-term cultural shift.”

If you’re at all like me, you didn’t get the garden fully cleaned up before the snow came last fall. That means when it melts, we’re going to have a bit of work to do before it looks presentable.

As you pull out dead annuals, cut back perennials to their new growthand generally clear away dead foliage, consider placing it in a compost pile so it can be reused later in the summer to amend your garden soil.

No matter what kind of garden soil you have, one way to make it more hospitable for your plants is to amend it with organic material such as compost. And one wonderful way to create your own compost is to recycle your garbage and garden scraps.

Each one of us disposes of nearly one ton of waste annually. That’s a lot of landfill space ... unless we recycle kitchen and yard waste into rich, dark compost for personal use.

Just think of the things you bag up for disposal: coffee grounds, grass clippings, leaves, pine needles, table scraps, newspapers. These are all waste items that can be composted for later use in your garden. Composting is an earth-friendly way to dispose of our trash. And it’s a smart way to garden.

Plus, from personal experience, I can tell you it’s economical, too. The cost for purchased compost can add up.

Adding compost improves the drainage and aeration of your soil. It holds moisture in and releases fertilizer nutrients slowly while increasing the activity of earthworms and other organisms that are beneficial to plant growth.

To make compost, layer small pieces of “green” and “brown” waste material. Green waste is fresh plant materials such as weeds from your yard, fruit and vegetable scraps, green leaves, coffee grounds and tea bags, twigs, etc. Use caution when adding very fine green material such as grass clippings since it can mat and prevent air and water movement through the layers.

Brown wastes are dry, dead materials such as straw, dried weeds, newspapers, wood chips or sawdust. (Do not compost wood treated with preservatives or clippings from grass treated with chemicals. Also, don’t use meat or dairy products as these could cause odors and attract animals. It’s also not recommended to use fresh manure in compost because of concerns about new strains of E. coli and other bacteria that cause human illness.

Mix the pile several times per month to add oxygen and keep the heat uniform throughout the materials. Because our summers here are so dry, you also may need to occasionally sprinkle water on your compost layers. It should be moist but not soggy throughout. If the compost is properly mixed and maintained, a final product may be obtained in one to two months under optimum summer conditions. It should shrink to about half of its original size and have a nice earthy smell.

Once the wastes have decomposed, use your compost as a soil amendment, a mulch or make compost tea (the liquid from a settled mix of half compost/half water) as a boost for house plants, seedlings and transplants. You’ll be doing something good for your garden and for your community.

If you aren’t into creating your own compost pile, Twin Enviro Services offers “curbside compostable item” pickup in Steamboat as well as delivery of their locally-made compost.

When I first headed out to Richmond just before 8pm, there was mayhem everywhere.

Streams had suddenly flooded and then receded just as quickly, leaving a trail of rocks and debris strewn across the road. Vegetation was woven through fences near flattened by the force of the water.

People had stopped their cars and were out walking the street, assessing the damage, unsure how far they could proceed.

Others were still working to keep the flooding off their properties. It seemed emergency services hadn't made it to many of the problem spots yet. Instead, members of the public or roading contractors were directing traffic.

Floodwaters were too deep for my vehicle to get down Saxton Rd to Main Rd Stoke so I instead went through Saxton Field. I narrowly made it through some floodwaters in there only to find it impossible to turn onto Main Rd Stoke near the freezing works entrance. That road had turned into a river with at least two cars that I could see abandoned in the middle.

It was obvious I wasn't going to get anywhere so I returned home to get our 4WD and give it another crack. This time I went along Nayland Rd to get onto the bypass but it too was now closed. Traffic was bumper to bumper along Saxton Rd and not prepared to wait; many were turning back in the direction they came. I got back through Saxton Field. Floodwaters had started to recede a bit and I was able to get on to Main Rd Stoke, still travelling through surface flooding.

Once at Pak 'n Save I joined a team of helpers - not even sure where half of them had come from but they were doing a tremendous job, pushing water out the door with brooms and mopping up with whatever they could find. Water had been ankle deep halfway through the shop but the worst of it had been dealt with by the time I got there just before 9pm. Adding to the mess were all the bark chips that had flooded in from outside gardens, getting into every nook and cranny. Bags of rice and kitty litter had done little to keep the floodwaters out.

Inside the mall appeared worse, particularly around the newly refurbished food court area which resembled a small lake. I suspect they were bailing water from there most of the night.

By 10pm there was little more I could do to help in the supermarket so I started the journey home, heading first down Queen St. Every second shop was being mopped out. The florist appeared to have an entire shop out on the footpath while they cleaned up. Others were obviously leaving the mess to deal with in daylight.

It was amazing how different the drive home was. Road blocks were all gone. Most of the surface flooding had disappeared and even the abandoned cars had been removed. There was very little sign of road workers or emergency services. Hard to believe the difference an hour or two can make.

A teenager said he is scared to go outside after he was portrayed on the Internet and on the front page of the New York Post as connected to the Boston Marathon bombings.

Photos of Salah Eddin Barhoum, 17, and friend Yassine Zaime were posted on websites whose users have been scouring marathon finish line photos for suspects. The two were also on the Post's front Thursday with the headline: "Bag men: Feds seek these two pictured at Boston Marathon."

The Post reported later Thursday that the men weren't considered suspects, and the FBI has since identified two other men as suspects in the bombings Monday that killed three and injured more than 180.

But Barhoum, a track runner at Revere High School, said he is convinced some will blame him for the bombings, no matter what.

He was so fearful on Thursday that he ran back to the high school after a track meet when he saw a man in a car staring at him, talking into a phone, he said.

Barhoum added he received more than 200 messages online Wednesday, with one commenter from Oregon asking: "How could you do that? Did you even think about the consequences?"

Barhoum said he won't feel safe until the actual bombers are caught.

"I'm going to be scared going to school," Barhoum said. "Workwise, my family, everything is going to be scary."

Attempts to reach Zaime were not immediately successful.

Barhoum's father, El Houssein Barhoum, who moved his family from Morocco five years ago, said he is worried his son will be shot and also fears for his wife and two young daughters. He said he can't go to his job as a baker in Boston.

"Right now, we are not secure," he said. "So, the news (media), when they put something, they should be sure about the information."

A message requesting comment was left with a spokeswoman for the Post. In a statement to the Washington Post, New York Post editor Col Allan said, "We stand by our story. The image was emailed to law enforcement agencies yesterday afternoon seeking information about these men, as our story reported. We did not identify them as suspects."

The photos show Barhoum with a black Nike athletic bag, wearing a blue and black track suit. Zaime is carrying a black backpack, wearing a white cap and black track clothes.

Men with bags at the marathon have been a focus of Internet scrutiny, because officials believe that how the bombers carried in the explosives.

Barhoum said there are only two reasons he's been labeled a suspect: his bag and his brown skin.

Barhoum said he was at the marathon with Zaime, a friend from the running club, hoping to run a portion of it behind the official field. They took the subway, and Barhoum's bag was for his running gear.

But the pair got the address wrong and ended up at the finish line instead of the start. Barhoum said they decided to stick around to see the top runners, then left.

Barhoum said that late Wednesday, friends started flagging the online photos, and commenters started their work. He said he was so upset, he visited police early Thursday to clear his name. He said they him advised to restrict access to his Facebook account.

When the Post published the photo later Tuesday, a bad situation got worse, Barhoum said.

"It hurts because the person who did it must be happy right now, looking at the people who are getting blamed," he said. "And I'm one of them."

Workers at Sea-Tac Airport claim they're exposed to blood, vomit and worse every day, and they say they don't have procedures in place to keep them from getting sick.

The state recently levied a steep fine against a vendor that provides wheelchair service for Alaska Airlines, but the workers still aren't happy.

The people who wheel passengers to and from their planes say the stuff they deal with is not only disgusting, but potentially life-threatening.

Not everyone who flies can negotiate the airport on their own, and the ill and disabled often ride in wheelchairs. The workers who push them claim they're exposed to germs and pathogens and have no training or means to avoid contact.

"I had one passenger who threw up from the time I picked him up at the airplane to the time I dropped him off at the ambulance," said Carol Worman of Bags, Inc.

Afraid they or passengers might be exposed to hepatitis B or other life-threatening pathogens, employees of Bags, Inc. -- a vendor for Alaska Airlines -- took their complaints to the state.

"It saddens me to know that management and the CEOs of our corporations just aren't paying attention to what the workers are having to deal with," said Riverton Park United Methodist Church Rev. Jan Bolerjack.

The state found Bags, Inc. had no procedure to clean contained wheelchairs and keep employees protected. The state Department of Labor and Industries imposed a $12,000 fine.

"It was simply for training documents," said D'Anne Mica of Bags, Inc. "We have no reports of any exposure incidents or anyone coming in direct contact with that."

Officials from Alaska Airlines say they're pleased with the response from the vendor, but workers are not.

Supporters recently lined up to hand over complaints, and many passengers seemed to agree with them.

"It really surprises and upsets me that Alaska would contract with companies that treats workers so poorly," said passenger Nicki Olivier.

Duane Burge with Alaska promised the workers their complaints would reach the appropriate people.

Workers say they are now being supplied with wipes to disinfect the wheelchairs. The company has three weeks to correct the violations or face further penalties.

London, which is on alert as it prepares for Margaret Thatcher's funeral on Wednesday and the London Marathon on Sunday, long ago took steps that many U.S. cities and large corporations with huge campuses may be thinking about now.

Packages or bags placed on the ground or in trash bins are a major vulnerability.

London rid itself of trash bins decades ago as a security risk amid strife with Northern Ireland. The city is accustomed to extensive public safety planning and precautions surrounding major public events, such as the London Summer Olympics.

Boston police say there is no evidence the devices at the marathon blew up in trash cans, though they might have been placed in a nylon bag and set on the ground.

Kaveh Memari, CEO of Renew, said a "blast-mitigating" recycling "pod" his company developed can prevent some damage if a device was placed in one of these bins.

"It's exactly this kind of thing that this thing was designed to handle," Memari said of the unit, which is almost 5 feet tall.

"We don't use the word 'bin' at all as most times people would not envision a Renew Pod," Memari said. "It's like referring to an email as a message, an armoured transport a wagon, or a smartphone a telephone to someone who has never written an email, been in a tank nor used a mobile."

Renew is providing about 100 "bomb-proof" recycling pods in London that show advertisements and public service announcements.

"Renew is not just a hardened shell," said Memari. He said its built-in messaging system also fills the "informational black hole" that follows for people in the surrounding area, like that which followed the London bombings on July 7, 2005.

The company conducted blast testing at New Mexico Tech's Energetic Materials Research and Testing Center, which provides training approved by the Department of Homeland Security.

Stephen Vickers, account executive with Renew in London, explained that free newspapers and other material piled up in the streets after trash bins were eliminated.

As part of Renew's 21-year contract with the city, last year it began placing the pods in London's City Square Mile.

The company already placed one pod near the New York Stock Exchange in the spring of 2012 and hopes to have additional units in the city later this year. It also has four pods in Singapore.

For the upcoming London Marathon, the pods will provide information on road and subway closures, as well as advice on being safe and vigilant.

"Road closures will be in effect from 07:00 in the City on Wednesday as part of arrangements for Lady Thatcher's funeral," is one example of a message. London Underground subway status updates can also be shown on the bins.

The opening of the paper-only pod fits the size of a McDonald's disposable cup, said Vickers. There are also mixed recycling apertures which also allow for the collection of plastic and can beverage containers.

Ian Murison, director of engineering with Curventa, the industrial design firm that helped develop Renew's pods, adds that the openings to the bins can be locked remotely so people can't put anything inside in emergencies.

Murison said the internal area of the pod is designed to withstand the shock force of a bomb.

Previously, London had a number of cast iron bins that would cause additional damage if an explosive device broke away its pieces.

The city previously had over 1,300 waste bins before the IRA bombings but now has about 25 in some of the parks, Memari said.

Many cities are limiting garbage bins or only using clear plastic bags hung by simple wire or plastic stands, so the contents of the garbage are easily viewable.

Murison declined to reveal the bins' material for security purposes, but said they were made of a type of steel "joined together in the best way possible to withstand a substantial shock blast." The company also enlisted the help of a submarine engineer.

They are composed of a "Blast Module center," "which is four times stronger than steel and is designed to handle huge over pressures and blast waves emanating from an Improvised Explosive Device," Memari said.

"We learned that bombs placed inside of bins made better bombs," Murison said from Curventa's headquarters in London. "And when glass shatters, that's what causes the damage and a lot of lacerations."

The recycling bins are also designed so any potential explosion would blow the lid up in the air.

"The vast majority of the energy of an explosion is going into thin air. We do have to send the shockwaves somewhere and like a chimney it goes straight up but should protect people in the vicinity," he said.

While the technologies may assist in preventing some tragedies, Murison said public vigilance is a major factor.

"You can control something in an enclosed space like a stadium, but when it's outside like a marathon, it's extremely difficult," he said. "You hope the vast majority of the public is vigilant and report suspicious activity -- unless you lock down the whole city, which isn't going to happen."

In kitchens, they prepare food faster, but pressure cookers by their very nature help make good bombs, amplifying the blast and the carnage.

They don't just hold the explosives. The tightly sealed pot that speeds the cooking of beans and meat makes easier-to-obtain but weaker explosives faster and stronger. And they may also help investigators find out who built the deadly homemade bombs that exploded at the Boston Marathon on Monday.

Investigators found fragments of BBs and nails, possibly contained in a pressure cooker, said Richard DesLauriers, the FBI agent in charge in Boston. He said the items were sent for analysis.

If a pressure cooker was used, it probably cost around $100 to construct, say former federal forensic and explosive investigators. It's like a pipe bomb but bigger and more powerful.

Pressure cooker bombs are more often used in Afghanistan, Pakistan India, and Nepal – where the pots are more commonly used for cooking. But they have also been prominent in bombings and attempts in the United States, especially in New York in Times Square in 2010 and Grand Central Terminal in 1976.

In Al Qaeda's online magazine, there's even an article titled: "Make a bomb in the kitchen of your mom" by "The AQ Chef." It mentions, even recommends, pressure cookers, noting that weak explosives only work with the high pressure of a cooker or sealed pipe.

Low power explosives like black powder and smokeless powder – the most likely ones used in Boston – blow up at a slower rate and only deliver the big boom if they are confined and the pressure from the gas and explosion builds up, said Denny Kline, a former FBI explosives expert and instructor in forensics at its academy.

Kline and other ex-government experts who have no role in the investigation differ about what type of explosive may have been used and some refuse to even speculate what kind.

The pressure cookers are a key first piece in a painstaking detective process. The sound of the explosion is a clue. The color of the flash – yellow – and smoke – white – are clues. So is the size of any crater and the distance fragments flew. Even the smell can give a seasoned investigator a good idea of what explosive was used, Kline said.

"We basically try to create a model for what the bomb looked like," said Matthew Horace, a former special agent for the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. "Investigating bombs is like a puzzle."

Piece by piece, forensic investigators now have to put together what came apart with an explosive force of thousands of feet per second: The bombs themselves.

"It's going to change its appearance and its form, but it's going to remain," said Kline. "It'll be broken up into lots of little pieces, but it's not going to evaporate."

The job is to piece things back together and identify chemicals. But it happens slower than on TV crime shows. And it isn't as easy, Kline said.

"It takes a lot more intelligence to put it back together... from multiple pieces than to follow a simple set of instructions on the Internet," said Roy Parker, a retired ATF explosives expert.

Kline said once forensic investigators have something on the bomb itself, it is given to lead detectives to take the next big step

Take the pressure cooker. If the brand is determined, "investigators will track every store that sells that pressure cooker and when it was built and sold," Horace said. "This kind of investigation requires hundreds, if not thousands of leads to be followed up on."

Horace and others are confident that the pressure cooker identification can be a big help.

The pressure cooker can also help point to the type of explosive, Kline said. If it's a high powered explosive like dynamite or C4, the blast would have shattered the cooker leaving sharp edges. If it's the low explosive, it will merely blast through, leaving more squared off edges, he said.

Once everything is pieced together, investigators will look for the "signature" or style of a bomber. Often – but less so since the Internet was born – a signature can lead to a bomber, Kline said.

"It's like a piano player," Kline said. "You can give Dave Brubeck or Chopin the same piece of music and it will sound different."

With this type of bomb, it can be triggered with something as simple as an egg timer or alarm clock, Parker said. Experts doubt a cellphone was used.

The use of nails, shards of metals and ball bearings also amplifies the personal devastation, experts said.

"We've removed BBs and we've removed nails from kids. One of the sickest things for me was just to see nails sticking out of a little girl's body," said Dr. David Mooney, trauma chief at Boston Children's Hospital, which treated 10 blast victims.

Two men sit over a lunch of Vietnamese noodles in Virginia Beach and talk about a secret world they are leaving behind.

The restaurant is a big open room - good for men who speak intently to each other but make it a point to watch everything around them.

The younger man listens with a quiet focus. He is muscular and, at 31, has thick dark hair and a tattoo poking out from under his left shirt sleeve. There's an easy intelligence to him that gives little hint of the adversity he's overcome.

He's never met his lunch partner until today, but he knows of him. In their world, everybody does.

That man is 16 years his senior, bald, with piercing eyes and a commanding urgency. He walks briskly despite a pronounced limp, and he speaks with a fierceness that alludes to his world of experiences.

Though strangers, they have each earned the other's respect. They recognize in each other a rare resolve that stems partly from being a special breed of warrior and partly from being in that more obscure realm of survivor.

These two men were Navy SEALs, part of America's most secretive and elite group of fighters, serving their country at a time of war.

Both were in peak condition when they were wounded in Afghanistan 18 months apart. They were stripped of the very essence of their warrior creed - being "physically harder and mentally stronger" than the enemy.

For many people wounded in war, recovery is a quest to regain some sense of a normal life. But these two men discovered that they needed something more. Still burning within them, even though they could no longer run with the fastest or fight with the strongest, was an unyielding drive for excellence.

Over lunch, they relive the intensity of getting hurt and the difficulty of finding the right care. They describe the gaps in a system that's supposed to take care of them and of the abiding power of determination, generosity and love.

Robbie was standing on an embankment in eastern Afghanistan in October 2010 when two grenades misfired inside a launching canister right in front of him. Three years into his career with the SEALs, the job had been everything he'd envisioned: challenging, intriguing work that took him away from his desk position as a mechanical engineer and put him on the front lines.

The blast sent him flying off the embankment and back several yards. He stood up, reached his hand to his face to wipe the gravel out of his mouth. But it wasn't gravel. Those were his teeth, broken and loose.

Then he noticed blood pouring from the other hand, as if someone had run a can opener the length of his left arm, then pulled the sides apart.

Instinct - and adrenaline - kicked in. Robbie pulled out his tourniquet and wrapped it around his ravaged arm.

Robbie was taken to Bagram Airfield, the main hub for NATO and U.S. forces in eastern Afghanistan, with a sophisticated hospital. By chance, specialists on deployment included a hand surgeon and vascular surgeon. They spent 14 hours operating on him.

When he woke up, his arm was still there. It was still there after surgeries at the U.S. military hospital in Landstuhl, Germany, where doctors also cleaned up his shattered cheekbone, and it was still there at the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Md.

For six weeks, doctors operated frequently while the wound stayed open, filled with drains and tubes. His mother came down to be by his side.

In the blur of morphine and anesthesia, Robbie knew one thing: His arm was still there.

In July 2009, Jimmy's team - part of the Navy's Special Warfare Development Group - was on a search mission in eastern Afghanistan. The warriors landed in the dark and were hit with gunfire and rocket-propelled grenades as they made their way across a field.

Jimmy was an old hand at this kind of mission. He'd become a SEAL in 1990 and joined his elite unit in 1994, back when there was no war. After six years, he left the unit to teach parachuting. When war broke out, he pushed hard to get back to Virginia Beach.

That was in 2004. Now, five years later, Jimmy was a senior chief, a leader of expert commandos, strong and alert and brimming with confidence. He was one of the toughest guys in the world.

The bullet that found his leg exploded through his femur just above the knee. It exited with pieces of bone and flung him through the air.

The pain was exquisite. In the seconds it took him to land, he told himself not to scream because that would give away the location of the men around him. Then his lungs filled with air, and he couldn't help it. He screamed in agony.

Two SEALs shot their way through the firefight, stabilized him and shot their way back out to pull him to safety.

A week later, Jimmy was at Bethesda. He underwent 17 surgeries - to clean the wound, to repair the damage, to clear out infection. Surgeons repaired his knee, reconstructed his femur and grafted nerves.

Lying in a hospital bed with a cocktail of powerful painkillers and too much time, Jimmy started to replay the moment, over and over.

He heard himself screaming in that Afghan night. He hated that sound. He hated himself for putting his buddies in danger to come to his rescue.

"The drugs, the inability to sleep - those things conspire against you," he says. "And I was embarrassed. I felt like I completely dishonored my crew."

Robbie is not a religious guy. Yet he couldn't help thinking it was more than coincidence that the day he arrived at the battlefield hospital in Bagram, hand and vascular surgeons were deployed there.

"They were able to take that," he says, pointing to a picture of his open wound, "and put it back together."

Most days at Bethesda, he'd walk down the hall to the physical therapy room and ride a bicycle or walk on a treadmill, using a table with a pillow to rest the arm.

It didn't take much to wipe him out - a tough adjustment for a guy who could once back-squat 400 pounds and run sub-6-minute miles.

As the weeks passed, Robbie's Navy doctors grew pessimistic. The arm is dead, they told him. It has to come off.

The young petty officer said no, defying the authority of his senior ranking doctors. He did his own research and learned that nerves can regrow, but that it could take months or even years.

A friend put him in touch with a doctor in Tucson, Ariz., who sent Robbie information about nerve regeneration.